Electric propulsion for trikes

[Larry Mednick]

I believe the 440 makes around 40 HP. But for whatever reason does not have the power of a Rotax 447 which is also rated at 40 HP. In any case the Kawi 440 works great on a Jet Wing. Jay Bird sells the 440s with redrives ready for a trike. Very economical choice. Personally I like the new tech single cylinder liquid cooled motors best in that category, but they are over $5000 these days. But you get dual ignition, an actual gear box and silencers on both ends and more.

[Skyrunner]

I want to loose all of that and switch to an electric motor. Gas is on the way out. It’s time to go green. I want to build an all electrical system. I have spent a good portion of my life turning a wrench on gas and diesel engines. It’s time I learn electric. But I really need help with that. My project is at the perfect point to build in the electrical system. Any help out there?

[Larry Mednick]

I flew an electric trike 12 years ago…

https://youtu.be/aNZqpMB093shttps://youtu.be/aNZqpMB093s

Time flys and technology is getting there.I had an 8 minute flight time on that little trike… But even today no one is flying over 1 hour under power, not even the ANT or Pipestrel. But they both soar and can mix soaring and powered flight to stay up for hours making them perfect for electric propulsion today.

I think you are looking at around the $12-$18,000 system to get 40 hp to fly for one hour. One of the guys that goes to Oshkosh every year with his E-gull buys crashed E bike motorcycles and uses the battery charger speed control and motor system from the used motorcycle. Take a look on eBay and see how much you might be able to find a wrecked electric motorcycle for. But if you want a 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 hours powered flight, you are going to need to wait until battery density reaches around 300% of what it is today. With Elon Musk at the helm, that could happen sooner than later and I personally am waiting and look forward to the day that even REVO’s are Electric.

[Skyrunner]

I like the REVO’s . I think they are built really good. I would like to end up with a Northwing on top of my trike. I honestly think the Northwing is the best trike wing on the market. With electric propulsion and a really cool looking Northwing on top. That would make the ultimate Jetwing restoration.

[Jim Stout]

I too am looking forward to go with all electric trike. Larry’s right definitely gotta wait for the battery technology to catch up with the ESC (electronic speed controller) and brushless motors. Both are ready for prime time! With the all of those electric cars coming out shouldn’t be too long!!

[Skyrunner]

I would love to be at the point that when those new batteries come out. It will just be a battery upgrade.

[Jonathan Barraclough]

The unfortunate reality is that for the first few years after the new battery tech arrives it will be more expensive than what is currently available (which is already expensive). The way it works for industries like the ultralight/LSA industry is this: the new tech makes it to the market, it’s very expensive, the only companies that get access to it are the large automobile, military, etc. organizations, a few years later the tech trickles down to the smaller battery manufacturers that serve smaller companies that serve smaller industries (like ours) and the price starts to come down. So to get the fancy batteries into ultralights/LSAs we’re looking at 5 to 7 years. To give you an idea, what is currently available to the large car companies is 20% to 30% more energy dense and lasts 50% to 100% longer than what is available to us. Companies that come out with solid state batteries first are going to play their tech really close to the chest for as long as possible until the tech becomes commonplace. So the question is: do you go electric now, and reap the many benefits that are currently available, and then upgrade in 7 years, or do you wait? Everyone will have their own answer and it will be different for everyone.

[Paul Hamilton]

Very enthused about electric trikes. Have been following the electric for aviation and for my flight today I would have needed 740 pounds of batteries for my flight……

[Tom Currier]

Nice ahow on NOVA last night regarding electric planes. Looks like a few LSA’s are in the works but nothing about trikes

[Eddie Smith]

At 65 years old I don’t think I will live long enough to see electric replace the internal combustion engine.But it will happen.There’s only so much oil in the ground.

[Skyrunner]

Your right, it’s time to go green.

[Skyrunner]

Thank you

[John Scollon]

12 yrs ago I made the 1st successful run up the pikes peak hill climb on an electric motorcycle, took 16 minutes to deplete the $20k battery. It wasn’t capable of running at 3/4 throttle for more than 8 miles. I had a temp guage on the battery so I would just get off the gas when the temp got up and gas it when it cooled down.

[Skyrunner]

That is a really hard climb. After 12 years I hope we can do better. I think it is just a matter of getting in touch with the right person to help.

[John Scollon]

I work with LG and tesla home batteries. They have a high failure rate. I see 20 dead batteries a week on average. 25% installed wrong, 25% miss used and drained too low to bring back. Geckos and high humidity might take out the rest. Hawaiian home owners are guinea pigs. But maybe we will benefit from it.

[Skyrunner]

I have honestly wondered about those batteries. I bet long about the third generation of batteries will be allot better.

[Skyrunner]

I wonder how one of those would work if they were installed correctly? Kept above 30%, and out in western Nebraska. We don’t have allot of either humidity, or lizards. I would sure test one out here if he would give me one to test.

[John Scollon]

Seems like the weather in Nebraska would be too low in the winter. They can’t drop below 0

[Jonathan Barraclough]

It’s a very good point. The work around that we’ve been using is to make the battery modules modular. You store and charge them indoors, until you’re ready to go fly. Then you take them and slide them into place and snap the connectors on. The act of discharging them at high rates will keep them warm during flight. Motors and ESC’s love the cold. As a general guideline you remove the battery modules after flight and keep them in a temperature controlled environment. This ensures long life and prime performance.

[Skyrunner]

That is ok, I have absolutely no intent to fly in the winter. I learned how to skydive in the winter. Pretty well done with cold wind in my face. 😁

[John Scollon]

It took a decade to get approval for the electric motorcycle class on Pikes Peak. How to deal with safety due to high voltage batteries in a crash is new , it wasn’t really done well. Doesn’t take much electricity to stop a heart. Smaller the person the less electricity needed.

[John Scollon]

Do you know the difference between a standard car salesman and an EV car salesman? The standard car salesman knows he’s lying.

[Nuhu Green]

Hi everyone am nuhu green from West Africa also having the passion in aerotriangle ,,trikes ,, I use motorcycle engine 47 hp when building my trike and I tested both dynamic and static thrust all went positive . Now am struggling on the wings

[Skyrunner]

Hello, welcome to the group. I wish I has some idea how to build a wing. There would be no way I would try that one myself. What did you use for a motor setup?

[Nuhu Green]

Hi there again I used an engine made from China ,,kasea,, 4 stroke and single Cylinder having a range from 47 – 50hp at 9000 rpm weigh 14 kg I, myself made 4 hands propeller here is my YouTube ,,medi 1tv creativite niger ,,

[Larry Mednick]

A little birdie told me there is at least 1 mainstream manufacturer working on an electric power system for light sport aircraft. They know the battery tech is not there YET. but will be in market position as soon as the battery density triples. They can literally already do all their testing and everything regardless of how short the test flights are. I don’t think it will take 10 years, but I think 3 or more years and we can build and buy electric aircraft equivalent to combustion motors (power/weight/endurance)

I have over 50 radio airplanes and helicopters and ALL of them are electric and I wouldn’t even consider “gas” since my flight times are more than enough for RC. No clean up, instant throttle response and much higher reliability. I really do love electric for those reasons alone.

[Okidi Sam]

Send me some of the RC for learning purposes. Thanks

[Jim Stout]

I agree, Larry. I’ve been flying drones for 4 years. Heck alot better maintenance wise! Now for 80-100 hp equiv electric system…..

[Skyrunner]

Yea, kind of like me. I realize there is a limited flight time. But so do I. I just want to go putz around for a bit. Right now I have no real “want” to fly a little trike. That only goes about 45 – 50mph cross country. I live in Western Nebraska…..It all looks the same from the air…lol.

[Alan Davison]

Aerolite 103 sells complete electric propulsion systems, plug and play for their ultralight aircraft. Do you think it could be used successfully in trikes?

[Jonathan Barraclough]

Hi Alan, Aerolite does make a good system. Dennis is currently looking for another battery supplier though, or so I was told. Hopefully he’ll have it all situated soon. With my kits I use Molicel batteries from Canada. Super quality and performance. I don’t know all the specific components Dennis uses but I know they took a good amount of time perfecting it before releasing to the public, which is good.

[Skyrunner]

Thank you. Will look into that system closer.

[Jonathan Barraclough]

Hi Sam, I produce the electric propulsion kit that goes on Northwing’s electric ATF trike. Everyone is correct that you won’t get over an hour of flight time with current batteries. However on a soaring/thermalling aircraft that may be fine. Batteries are still expensive too so you won’t go electric for the same price as gas. You just have to weigh the benefits vs. drawbacks and make that call yourself. I personally will only fly electric, but hey, I’m biased. ;). If you’re interested in purchasing a kit just drop me an email: silentelectrics@earthlink.net. I can give you specifics on price and what can and cannot be done. Other than trikes I’ve got my kits currently going on a Song motorglider and a Kolb Firestar. Hopefully we’ll get the miracle batteries soon and we can fly as long as the gassers.

[Larry Mednick]

Hi Jonathan, what is the retail price for your electric package and what is the horsepower of the system?

[Jonathan Barraclough]

Hi Larry, not sure why this site didn’t tell me someone responded to my post, maybe I didn’t click something. Sorry for the delay. Yes, kits and prices. I sell two motor sizes, 21kW and 35kW. The 21kW motor is what’s on the ATF, good for 500 to 600 FPM climb on that and similar aircraft, and is ideal for light trikes, light ultralights and motorgliders. For that motor I recommend either a 4kWh battery for 40 minutes of flight time or 6kWh for 1 hour. So the 4kWh system is $9500, the 6kWh system is $11,600. The 35kW motor is great for full-size ultralights, but as I tell people, once you add the battery weight to a full-size ultralight you’ll be over the 254 lbs and you’ll have to register experimental (whereas the light trikes with the 1 hour battery still make weight). On this type of aircraft you’re looking at 7kWh for 40 minutes and 10kWh for 1 hour. The 7kWh system is $13,900, the 10kWh system is $16,700. Everyone I’ve talked with so far wonders why so expensive? The batteries are pricey for sure (my cells and packs are made in N. America), but the motors and controllers are also expensive. I only sell top of the line components that are being used currently by major companies doing electric VTOL and urban air mobility. I know there are cheaper components out there and I did, briefly, think about offering those to bring the cost down. So I tested those components myself and they are dangerous. This is aviation and safety is of prime importance so I will only represent the best the market has available. The last thing you want is a battery catching fire or your motor going dead mid-flight. Let me know if you have any questions.

[Jonathan Barraclough]

Sorry, that’s 28HP and 47HP respectively.

[Larry Mednick]

Hi Jonathan, at the moment you won’t get email notifications for every comment in the thread. I may not have replied to your comment and just replied to the thread. Thats why its important that everyone check Trike Action at least 3X a day 🙂

Wow, that 47 HP motor would be about perfect in our REV X which is N numbered. I too share your exact feelings on quality/price in aviation. A friend of mines trike did catch fire in the air with an electric system about 10 years ago. Luckily he was low and landed close enough to my Father (I wasn’t there) to extinguish the flames. No injuries, but think about how long it takes to get especially a light trike down from 3000 feet. Spiral away for sure, but still.

<font face=”inherit” style=”font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit;”>Kamron at Northwing called me a </font>couple<font face=”inherit” style=”font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit;”> months ago to tell me that he had sourced a really good electric propulsion system for his ATFs. And that is yours apparently! So cool that we</font><font face=”inherit” style=”font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit;”> get to talk to the man himself! </font>

<font><font face=”inherit”>I think we should build an electric REV X maybe next year or as soon as we can take on the additional project. I look forward to familiarizing myself better with your set ups. By the time we do a 582 with radiator, fuel tank, ceramic exhaust, springless exhaust, intake and after mufflers and motor cradle I think we are pushing very close to $10,000, so something like a $5,000 option for electric on a $40+K machine seems really in line so </font>long<font face=”inherit”> as the quality is there to back the price. </font></font>

Thank you for being open here with pricing, weight and endurance. Surely most will be disappointed if they haven’t followed electric closely. But this is all a far better than where we were even just a few years ago. Looking forward to the future. Thanks for all the info.

[Jonathan Barraclough]

Hi Larry. Thanks for the kind words and professional reply. Kamron has indeed been a pleasure to work with and I greatly admire his expertise. My company would not be where it is without him. Putting a system on a REV would certainly be awesome. Let me know when you get there. 🙂

[Skyrunner]

Sounds like the 47hp would work great. Use most to take off and just a little to fly. Have extra hp if you need. Nice.

[Paul Hamilton]

Jonathan, WOW thanks for the input. Nothing loke getting the story from the expert. Really appreciate it. Do you have a website where all this is explained in a table or something.

What I would want is a BATTERY JACKET. Not part of the aircraft weight but a jacket I could wear that would have the capacity what I would want. Simply plug it in and good to go. That might be a product you may want to offer.

[Jonathan Barraclough]

A battery jacket. Now that’s one I’ve never thought of. It would certainly be heavy. My immediate concern would be the inertia of the battery mass and not having hard point mounts for them. Could cause some interesting flight dynamics if the pilot is shifting around during flight. I would also worry about spinal compression. Lots to think about.

No website yet. I’ve been so busy with orders and building another test aircraft that I just haven’t had time. I know it is necessary though and it is at the top of my priority list. There is a lot of education that needs to happen for the flying public so they start to feel comfortable with the idea of electrics. A website is one of the best ways to do that.

[Paul Hamilton]

Step 1. Get a good product. Not easy doing anything. Hard work and dedication. Great start for you in this industry. We will all be with you.

Step 2. Website must have. Start with one page. It is “another project” but worth it.

Maybe a battery backpack, blanket, saddle bag, etc……. My vision is electric ultralights should have a “luggage rack” perhaps.

Again thanks for your details, very helpful to have application data.

[Skyrunner]

Hi, I was wondering if you were talking about my trike? I could share more pics if you like. I have a space where I can build hard points. I have made my seat removable. But when it’s clipped in, it’s not going anywhere. As far as spinal compression goes…I got that one covered already. I’m a complete fusion from my hips to my neck. At this point, if it compresses I don’t want to live through it.

[Jonathan Barraclough]

BTW, for everyone’s knowledge and benefit, I can provide electric systems in the 100HP range. Liquid cooled motor, liquid cooled controller, super-slick cockpit glass panel display, with a 1 hour plus 20 minute reserve battery. And the cost is…”subscribe here”. I’m just kidding, the cost is about twice the cost of a 912iS. But after you add all the bells a whistles to the 912iS the cost disparity shrinks to about 25% to 30% more expensive. I’m sure no one is surprised by this information but I just wanted to let everyone know what is available.

[Paul Dewhurst]

I am preparing a Nynja U.K. microlight ( LSA) for electric power, it’s not a trike, but not dissimilar to what to expect from doing the same to a two seat trike. We are using a Gieger HPD50 motor – 70KW peak, 50 continuous. So not dissimilar to a 912 UL power wise.

We are using a 32kwhr battery array, that are using Samsung 50E cells. Weight will be 150kg for the battery packs.

Duration if we fly nice and slow at best glide speed will hopefully be around 1 hour with some reserves.

So just now for a two seater it’s a lot of battery mass and not inconsiderable cost for a modest endurance.

With a fast charge and some optimisation it might soon get so it’s viable for a school, but it isn’t going to be viable for cross country carefree touring until things progress by several orders of magnitude.

But it makes a lot more sense for a single seat light trike. The mission for such a machine is mostly local flying for an hour in the morning or evening or playing with the thermals during the day. Then only a modest power motor and battery is needed and cost although a bit more than a gas set up, is not so unreasonable.

And things will get more capable and price more reasonable as we go on. It will take a while but in another 5 years or so it may not be an uncommon sight in the sport.

[Larry Mednick]

Ok, question for the group: If you wanted an electric soaring trike that could really thermal, would you be concerned with how many feet it could climb or how long if could fly? For example if it could climb 7500 feet per charge or fly for 1 hour per charge. And How would you fly something with a <200 FPM sink? Low level flying? Exploring? pattern flying? climb to cloud base or altitude and soar? All of the above? And would this be an only trike or a 2nd trike for you.

[Ken Highfield]

It would have to be 2nd trike, longer flight time. low level exploring with some altitude and soaring. but if I could only pick one, low level exploring.

[Leo Iezzi]

There was a post a couple of weeks ago by a German Trike company that retrofitted one of their existing designs into electric. To be honest, that was the first time I thought to myself, this is something I could get into. Personally, I don’t care much for soaring. Give me an hours worth of slow and low and I would be all over it as a second trike.

[Jonathan Barraclough]

Alright, first off, I’m biased. Electric is the only way I’ll go. I’ll gladly deal with the limitations while thoroughly enjoying the many benefits. Second, yes, lithium battery vehicles do catch fire sometimes. What’s funny, and what’s not reported in the news – like ever, is so do gas cars. ;). Do you trust your phone not to explode in your ear? Do you trust your laptop not to deep fry your thighs? The majority would say “yes”, even though we’ve seen accounts of such batteries catching fire. Why? Because those technologies are ubiquitous and they’ve been around long enough that we just accept the risks. Why then do we put electric vehicles under such a microscope of distrust? Because it’s a new application and we fear what we don’t know, and each misstep is plastered all over the news like a nuclear bomb had exploded. Is it a good point that batteries catching fire in the air while you’re flying can be an especially difficult problem to solve? Yes of course. In spite of that, battery technology is advancing rapidly and these concerns will be alleviated equally as rapidly. Electric aircraft are advancing at an exceptionally rapid pace and, having worked in that industry, I can tell you that the leaders of these companies are aware of these risks and are demanding their battery suppliers to overcome any technical weaknesses pronto.

Anyway, my use of my electric trike is both low and slow AND climb and glide (I suppose the word would be “soar” if I was a better pilot). One day I’ll feel like doing one, and the next day I’ll feel like doing the other. A low and slow is about one hour in duration for a right-sized battery (with current Wh/kg tech available). A climb and glide is shorter if all you’re doing is “gliding”, but longer if you’re good at soaring. The EGO electric trike from Europe has clocked 2.5 hours from an otherwise one hour battery (of course they were using an ATOS wing which is VERY efficient).

[Paul Hamilton]

From my experience as a master rated hang gliding soaring pilot for decades, and now a successful powered hang glider/trike school, this is my perspective on this important question. First let’s look at why hang gliding has/is declining, struggling to survive. Pilots/people are generally lazy. Especially young people. Sad fact. There are fewer and fewer who want to use a motor to climb up in mid day turbulent conditions, circle up in the same location, and possible get flushed in the 600 rpm downdraft and hit the deck. 200 rpm climb, helpful/useless on a good thermal day. The joy of soaring is getting high and going somewhere. Flying low and slow is a different animal. The hang glider pilots I have transitioned to trike want to go somewhere and have hours of freedom. Even our latest pilot who bought an ATOS, whose original intent was to expand his hang gliding has not yet, after a year, to go up in knarley conditions to actually soar. He goes up and cruises around with a gas motor typically a couple of hours. So in reality, the concept of a soaring trike is great, but there is not enough market to support a low performance in climb and range trike. Simply look at the Industry leader Pipistral and Phoenix,the answer to powered soaring and declined/rejected medical. Appears to be a great marked but it is not. So the answer, until battery’s evolve, is the build the soaring trike with the intent of a soaring trike to meet part 103 weight, but include a nice “luggage rack” to be able to add additional luggage batteries to provide the climb and endurance for the current want to be soaring pilot and the rest of us who want to cruise around for a couple of hours. Best of both worlds. I think this would be successful by doubling the pilots who want to go electric.

[Travis Riebesell]

I’d be concerned with flying time. If there was something available with 2-3 hours flying time on one charge I’d consider buying one. However, so much easier filling up with go-go juice and going again and again and for longer without concern my charged battery just failed over a bad spot