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Trike accidents
What things contribute to the vast majority of trike fatalities? And is that different than airplane fatalities. I specify fatalities and not accidents, because landing a trike in too much wind probably causes many accidents which are not fatal and I wanted to focus on actual fatalities.
Obviously with airplanes, the reasons are more well known and factual, while the limited data for WSC and lack of expertise by the NTSB on our aircraft leaves a big public “question mark” in my opinion.
I have my own opinion, which is Airplane crashes are primarily caused by poor ADM, but I believe that is the #2 reason for trike fatalities. Interested to hear your opinions on the subject.
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15 Replies
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This is what we all want to avoid. Typically, just like airplane, it is the pilot, not the aircraft. Generally it is lack PROPER TRAINING and this is the tip of iceberg as we say. More later…..
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Was hoping for some more comments. But here is my own personal view. In triking I believe well over 80% of fatalities are spiral dive related. Sure loss of power and weather account for many, but not like spiral. Spiral can happen any time. Any time the pilot makes a bank steeper than their air speed allows. Sometimes the pilot does not properly coordinate the turn and what I am coming to the conclusion now is there are 2 types of spirals. One where adding power and or pushing the bar forward will not only not stall the low wing, but will actually reduce or eliminate the descent. I believe many trike pilots are using poor technique which works on these “mild” spirals. And then there is a breaking point with a little more bank and a little more nose down attitude where those rules instantly change and throttle or bar out can stall the low wing, but more importantly tighten the spiral and increase descent.
In summary if you are not sure of what I am talking about and you fly trikes, take some time to familiarize yourself with proper and improper spiral dive recovery.
spiral training
https://youtu.be/KPhIc97z_4gspiral training
https://youtu.be/KPhIc97z_4g-
Two really good videos! I have seen them both several times before, but never one after the other like from this post. I think for the trike community, if you were able to combined them both together and incorporate Paul’s training clip on spiral dives all in one video would be a great resource for all of us. Thanks for sharing.
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I have always been curious why this is such a killer. I have been doing them for 35 yrs and never was this a killer for WSC pilots until SP came along. Part of our training in the old days was if you’re doing something and not getting the responce you want then try or do something different or the opposite of what ever it is you’re doing at the time. I lost 7K’ in a spiral dive once then I stopped rotation and went the other direction for another 5K’. I top landed put on a sweater then gained 7500′ in the thermal I launched in. Spiral dives saved my rear in lighter trikes several times when thermalling took me straight to the white room. Used to start my aerobatics with a 2 turn spiral to build speed quick. When you need a 2K’+ fpm desent rate to get down they are the best way only safe way I know to get out of trouble fast.
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The spiral is a safe and effective maneuver. I don’t know why any instructor would avoid teaching it to students. But you have the real life reality of the situation.
REAL LIFE SPIRAL
https://youtu.be/G75bt1gL8FAREAL LIFE SPIRAL
https://youtu.be/G75bt1gL8FA
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As a hang glider pilot first the unintended spiral dive was a mystery to me until I began to teach GA pilots how to fly trikes when I was an ultralight instructor. I found many airplane pilots very hesitant to perform stalls. A stall in a turn in a three axis airplane helped them develop “muscle memory” reactions to prevent a stalled wing and potential spin entry. Airplane pilot – push the nose down and opposite rudder with your feet. That maneuver or reaction to a stall in a weight shift trike we all know tightens the spiral by pushing and opposite rudder with your feet accomplishes absolutely nothing. A little training and a weight shift trike can easily and safely accomplish a descending spiral and like Ted it can be very useful to someone like me that not only likes to thermal up but quickly descend when I choose. Believe it or not it can be pretty intimidating in a hang glider in strong thermal conditions when you have difficulty coming down when you want. Actually having to find sinking air to descend can create some apprehension. Trikes allow you more control and freedom in the air when you are ready and have the training to play in the sky with nice thermals. Get the training. It can actually be fun.
John Glynn
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Great Topic, I love the thought process of thinking through things and hearing from those that are very educated. 60 degrees should be talked about, Accelerated stalls, Inside wing stalls first, Uncoordinated turns, Gusts of winds or changes in wind direction as descending,
I hate to say this though, Instructors have died along with their student doing advanced training with spirals. That should be talked about.
Do you guys feel G’s when in your spiral dives?
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pulling some G’s is part of the fun in doing spiral dives, like an 80+ degree bank turn during base to final from 300′, even better start it dead stick from a couple of miles out. Student and instructors have died teaching spirals? No chute to deploy??
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I don’t know if they had a chute or not. What i do know for sure is that everyone responds differently when in high stress situations. This means that while you may be able to keep your head together and feel like it is not a problem, the other guy (student in front seat) may and most likely will do something very contrary to what you as the instructor knows needs to be done. I have never trained trike flying but i have had many years of teaching in extremely high stress situations and have seen many people freeze, and go kind of brain dead from the adrenaline dump. So if someone locks onto the controls and freezes, know that for some that is normal. Training in high stress situations, helps to learn to deal with high stress situations. Just know if your plans as an instructor don’t include what your going to do when someone locks up, you could very well be the next fatality.
So someone please tell me why a piece of yarn on the front windshield of my trike would show i i had a constant yaw? I think it was because i didn’t get it exactly centered on my windshield but it sure looked like it was. Anyone ever done this? I went into that because of uncoordinated turns while stalling and the dangers thereof.
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Student panic happened more often in the days we taught trike flying with out 2-place trainers. How many times did I have students cut power on rotation or forget to pull in on take-off? Pretty scary but most survived and because they were HG pilots already everyone knew how to handle a spiral dive. In the BFI days a few G in a spiral and a deadstick were just part of an introductory ride. Sport Pilot came along and no more aerobatics and pilots are dieing from not understanding how loading and unloading the wing works? as different as stick thermals and whip stalls? I not interested in 2 up flying or being a CFI but have respect for those not afraid to take it on. It would be nice if everyone had a tat on their forehead indicating prone to panic or not! Maybe a fear factor rating like the height restrictions on carnival rides? To fly this trike you have to have a panic rating above level 4.??
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Ted, I assume you are referring to Reb’s fatal accident. In that case the student’s attempt to exit the maneuver was attempted just seconds before impact. I am pretty sure Reb was planning to pull out of the spiral at the last moment when the student in the front seat beat him to the punch by pushing the bar out.
What was clear from the NTSB report and the recorded dialogue, is the student was very scared and was even yelling profanities, the instructor was cool as a cucumber and enjoying the maneuver and the student wanted the spiral to stop and seemed helpless.
The moral of this story is if your student is scared for whatever reason they can lock up your controls and if the instructor doesn’t have enough time to get the aircraft away from the student, bad things will happen.
Reb’s last word was “IN” and I assume the student was pushing out at that last moment before impact. I believe if they had more time and altitude all could have been avoided.
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Larry, have you reviewed the data from the Oregon crash of Chuck Kitsner?
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Hi Ted, I haven’t looked at the NTSB report on that one, but I have the whole video of what happened. Definitely a spiral, definitely used full power to try and exit. His trike responded 100% correct to the pilot input. Very sad…
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Hey Roger, the yarn should work. Have a look.
slipping turns
https://youtu.be/evPA1h6hXfkslipping turns
https://youtu.be/evPA1h6hXfk -
Train first, then practice. I can say for certain that this is not always done. If an instructor allows the student to make a mistake and then trains from that mistake prior to any instruction (you may not do that but some do) the instructor may be very surprised at the outcome. This is going to be a run on sentence on purpose. For example, say you tell a student to put it into an spiral dive, and as the instructor your expecting a certain result and all of a sudden the student puts the trike into a very unexpected attitude, and your assuming since your a top notch instructor with amazing skills you can get it out of anything and when you go to correct the maneuver you feel resistance because the student is freaking out and you say back and you assume the person’s brain is still working, and there is no response and you say back again and as the instructor your still expecting a response out of the student and you say my controls and there is no response and now the trike is in a very serious condition and your in the back seat and the student seems to be locking or something and now your realizing you should have had more altitude with this particular student that you had no idea and now you wish you were not training in a canyon with the canyon walls off to the side and your thinking now as the instructor i am in deep xxxx here and that ground is coming up fast and your giving all your might to pull the bar in and it seems like the student is on the throttle and fighting you and …………………………
From experience most people don’t learn very well in high stress situations. They learn really good though from making mistakes as long as they can admit to themselves they need improvement. Most people do not learn from instruction the first time they hear it. Most people assume someone else will react the same as they would react given the same situation , but this is not true. When i was training (not flying) I found that i could tell certain people over and over again certain things and in the end they would say i never trained them that. So i found that i would sit them down and tell them in a non high stress situation and then have them sign their name that i trained them that and amazingly, NOBODY ever said that again. So the simple fact of getting them to sign their name is what sunk it in their head.
So my point is to the instructor? Yes your an amazing instructor, yes you can pull a trike out of just about anything, yes the student is going to learn a lot from making a mistake but……you can’t anticipate what that student will do in a very surprised, scared, adrenaline environment. So if you have the belief you can correct every mistake that your student may do, in a very timely manner, that may be the one mistake that is final. Training first can help prevent a scenario . Truly understanding what an instructor might be up against is something only the instructor can ponder. Hats off to all our instructors. They can’t take all the stupid out of all of us, but they can take some of the stupid out of some of us. 🙂
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